2025.11.04

[seanmcilroy29]

2025.11.04 Agenda/Minutes

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Time 0800 (PT) / 1600 (BST) - See the time in your timezone

• Chair – Adrian Cockcroft
• Chair - Pindy Bhullar
• Convener – Sean Mcilroy (Linux Foundation)

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Antitrust Policy

Joint Development Foundation meetings may involve participation by industry competitors, and the Joint Development Foundation intends to conduct all of its activities in accordance with applicable antitrust and competition laws. It is, therefore, extremely important that attendees adhere to meeting agendas and be aware of and not participate in any activities that are prohibited under applicable US state, federal or foreign antitrust and competition laws.

If you have questions about these matters, please contact your company counsel or counsel to the Joint Development Foundation, DLA Piper.

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Recordings

WG agreed to record all Meetings. This meeting recording will be available until the next scheduled meeting.

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Roll Call

Please add 'Attended' to this issue during the meeting to denote attendance.

Any untracked attendees will be added by the GSF team below:

• Full Name, Affiliation, (optional) GitHub username

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Agenda and Minutes

• Approve agenda
• Approve previous meeting minutes

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Discussions

• Cloud Provider Data Updates:

  • AWS Scope 3 data release analysis, if available
  • Google and Microsoft sustainability report reviews
  • Automation implementation progress

• Specification Document:

  • Henry's review of PR Spec update #114 and Chris's feedback
  • Review current baseline spec
  • Consensus on naming conventions for carbon intensity metrics
  • Final approval and commit decision

• GHG Protocol Developments:

• Track changes in Green House Gas Protocol #128

• PWG - [AI] Prepare for GHG Protocol Response on Scope 2 proposals policy-wg#158

PWG is attempting to collect input from GSF members to determine whether the foundation can produce a unified public response to the GHG Protocol Scope 2 consultation. Bottom Line Changes: The shift toward hourly, geographically-bounded accounting could enable more accurate software carbon intensity measurement—resolving current SCI limitations—but may increase reporting complexity for distributed software systems.

• HSBC Case Study:

  • Draft review with working group
  • Internal approval status
  • Publication timeline with GSF

• General Updates:

  • Member organisation sustainability initiatives
  • WattTime data updates for 2024/2025
  • Real-Time Cloud dataset publication plans

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Discussions

• The team should consider clarifying when data is marked as an estimate in the documentation.

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AOB

• Topics added during the meeting

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Next Meeting

• 18th Nov

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Previous Meeting Action Items

Action Item	Owner	Due Date	Status
Create PR for AWS automation updates before pushing to dev	Adrian Cockcroft	October 22, 2025	Pending
Implement review comments directly on PR #114	Chris Adams	October 28, 2025	In Progress
Complete final review of specification updates	Henry Richardson	October 28, 2025	Pending
Draft Scope 2 consultation questions framework	Sean Mcilroy	October 28, 2025	Pending
Review and refine consultation questions (post-PTO)	Chris Adams	November 4, 2025	Pending
Test and document table extraction utilities	Adrian Cockcroft	November 4, 2025	Pending
Review AWS 2025 sustainability data releases	Adrian Cockcroft	November 2025	In Progress
Integrate Electricity Maps data with AWS updates	Adrian Cockcroft	November 4, 2025	Pending
Integrate WattTime data with AWS updates	Adrian Cockcroft/Henry Richardson	November 4, 2025	Pending
Prepare GSF position on GHG Protocol consultation	Policy Working Group	December 2025	Pending

[mrchrisadams]

I'm unable to attend this one this time. Apologies folks.

@seanmcilroy29 I've made those small changes for the PR, but I think I'll either need commit access to to this repo, or for someone with access to merge the small changes in PR for #114

[seanmcilroy29]

Real-Time Cloud Working Group Meeting Minutes

Date: November 4, 2025
Time: 0800 PT / 1600 BST
Meeting Type: Virtual Working Group Meeting
Chair: Adrian Cockcroft
Co-Chair: Parbinder Bhullar
Convener: Sean Mcilroy (Linux Foundation)

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Meeting Summary

The Real-Time Cloud project group review significant developments in cloud provider sustainability data, particularly AWS's recent release of the Scope 3 emissions methodology. Key discussions centred on the implications of AWS's sophisticated carbon accounting approach, progress on the review of the specification document, and strategic planning for GHG Protocol Scope 2 consultation responses. The WG established a timeline for dataset publication, including updates to version 1.1 and stakeholder engagement strategies with the FinOps Foundation.

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List of Key Discussions Based on the Agenda

Administrative Items

• Antitrust Policy: Acknowledged compliance with Joint Development Foundation antitrust requirements
• Recording Policy: Confirmed meeting recording availability until next scheduled meeting
• Agenda Approval: Approved without objection
• Previous Meeting Minutes: Approved without modification

Cloud Provider Data Updates

• AWS Scope 3 Data Release: Comprehensive analysis of methodology and carbon footprint implications
• Automation Progress: Review of Google data automation challenges and Oracle data processing requirements
• Comparative Analysis: Discussion of AWS's sophisticated approach versus other cloud providers

Specification Document

• PR Spec update #114 Review Status: Pending completion of Henry Richardson's review and Chris Adams's feedback integration
• Version Planning: Agreement to advance to version 1.1 with consolidated updates
• Publication Timeline: Established two-week review period before ratification

GHG Protocol Developments

• Scope 2 Consultation Analysis: Strategic discussion on unified GSF response development
• Policy Working Group Coordination: Review of Issue #158 for member input collection
• Hourly Accounting Implications: Assessment of impact on software carbon intensity measurement

HSBC Case Study

• Internal Approval Status: New team member Julian Wilmouth provided organizational context
• Publication Planning: Deferred pending internal review completion
• Integration Strategy: Alignment with broader GSF case study portfolio

General Updates

• WattTime Data Integration: Discussion of 2024/2025 data availability
• FinOps Foundation Engagement: Strategic planning for December collaboration meeting
• Real-Time Cloud Dataset: Publication roadmap and stakeholder review process

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Full Meeting Minutes

Meeting Opening and Administrative Procedures

Adrian Cockcroft opened the meeting at 1600 BST, establishing quorum with core working group members present. The antitrust policy was acknowledged, confirming all participants' understanding of compliance requirements for industry competitor participation. Sean Mcilroy confirmed the recording policy, noting retention until the subsequent scheduled meeting on November 18, 2025.

The previous meeting minutes from October 21, 2025, were approved without objection, confirming the action items and decisions made during the prior session.

Cloud Provider Data Updates - Extended Discussion

AWS Scope 3 Data Release Analysis:

Adrian Cockcroft presented comprehensive findings regarding AWS's recent Scope 3 emissions data release, marking a significant milestone in cloud provider transparency. The methodology represents a sophisticated approach combining fully instrumented process tracking for primary sources with spend-based calculations for peripheral activities.

Key Technical Findings:

• Carbon footprint increases observed across all regions, with Brazil experiencing nearly an order of magnitude increase when Scope 3 emissions are included
• Scope 3 data integrated into per-account information without a separate breakout, creating challenges for granular analysis
• Methodology documentation published alongside data release, providing transparency in calculation approaches

Unique AWS Approach - Spare Capacity Allocation:

The working group engaged in detailed discussion regarding AWS's distinctive approach to allocating spare capacity emissions across customer accounts. Adrian Cockcroft explained that unused cloud capacity is proportionally charged to customer accounts based on their usage percentage, representing a departure from industry standard practices.

Implications Discussed:

• Creates incomparability with other cloud provider metrics
• Provides a more comprehensive accounting of the total cloud infrastructure impact
• Raises questions about customer responsibility for infrastructure efficiency

Industry Engagement Opportunities:

Adrian Cockcroft noted the publication of an interview with Chris Walker (AWS Director) in The New Stack by Charles Humble, suggesting increased openness to external engagement. The working group discussed leveraging this momentum to encourage AWS participation in GSF initiatives.

Microsoft Azure Scope 3 Transition:

Julian Wilmouth, recently joining from Microsoft, confirmed Azure's planned transition to similar Scope 3 accounting methodologies. The working group noted the industry convergence toward comprehensive emissions reporting, though implementation approaches vary significantly.

Automation Implementation Challenges:

Adrian Cockcroft provided updates on automation efforts across multiple cloud providers:

Google Cloud Platform:

• Translation lookup requirements are creating implementation barriers
• Partial automation achieved with manual intervention still required
• Action required to complete translation mapping functionality

Oracle Cloud Infrastructure:

• Technical obstacles encountered requiring additional support
• Source data identified but processing pipeline incomplete
• Collaboration needed to resolve implementation blockers

Specification Document Review and Approval Process

PR #114 Status and Review Coordination:

Sean Mcilroy outlined the current status of Pull Request #114, noting dependencies on multiple stakeholder reviews. The working group discussed the need for consolidated feedback integration before advancing to formal approval.

Review Dependencies Identified:

• Henry Richardson's technical review is pending completion
• Chris Adams's feedback requires direct PR implementation
• Cross-reference validation with existing baseline specification

Version 1.1 Development Strategy:

The working group reached consensus on advancing the specification to version 1.1, incorporating accumulated improvements and clarifications from recent working sessions.

Key Updates for Version 1.1:

• Consolidated naming conventions for carbon intensity metrics
• Integration of lessons learned from cloud provider data analysis
• Alignment with evolving GHG Protocol requirements

Publication and Review Timeline:

Sean Mcilroy presented a structured approach for specification publication:

1. Internal Review Period: Two-week member review before next meeting
2. PR Submission Window: Open submission for member contributions
3. Consolidation Meeting: November 18 review of all proposed changes
4. Ratification Process: Formal approval following successful review
5. Communication Strategy: Social media campaign for version announcement

GHG Protocol Scope 2 Consultation - Strategic Response Development

Consultation Overview and Implications:

The working group engaged in substantive discussion regarding the GHG Protocol Scope 2 consultation, analyzing implications for software carbon intensity measurement. Sean Mcilroy presented the Policy Working Group's efforts to coordinate a unified GSF response through Issue #158.

Key Consultation Changes Analyzed:

• Shift toward hourly, geographically-bounded accounting methods
• Potential resolution of current SCI calculation limitations
• Increased complexity for distributed software systems reporting

GSF Position Development:

The working group discussed strategic considerations for the foundation's response:

Opportunities Identified:

• Enhanced accuracy in software carbon intensity measurement
• Better alignment with real-time grid emissions data
• Improved incentives for temporal load shifting

Challenges Discussed:

• Implementation complexity for multi-region deployments
• Data availability constraints in emerging markets
• Potential burden on smaller organizations

Coordination with Policy Working Group:

Sean Mcilroy confirmed ongoing collaboration with the Policy Working Group to ensure comprehensive stakeholder input collection. The December deadline for consultation response was noted, with action items assigned for framework development.

HSBC Case Study Development and Integration

Organizational Context and Team Transition:

Julian Wilmouth provided valuable context as HSBC's new representative, having recently transitioned from Microsoft. This unique perspective offers insights into both the cloud provider and enterprise user perspectives.

Internal Approval Process:

• Case study draft completed but awaiting internal stakeholder review
• Compliance and communications approval required before external publication
• Timeline dependent on internal governance processes

Publication Strategy Alignment:

The working group discussed integration with the broader GSF case study portfolio, emphasizing the importance of enterprise perspectives in demonstrating practical implementation.

Strategic Planning for FinOps Foundation Collaboration

Engagement History and Current Status:

Sean Mcilroy provided background on previous FinOps Foundation engagement, noting limited feedback following initial exploratory discussions. The working group acknowledged the need for more structured engagement to determine the viability of adoption.

Proposed Collaboration Framework:

The working group developed a strategic approach for re-engagement:

1. December Presentation: 30-minute session during regular working group meeting
2. Technical Deep Dive: Focus on version 1.1 improvements and use cases
3. Feedback Collection: Structured questionnaire for adoption requirements
4. Decision Timeline: Q1 2026 go/no-go decision on formal adoption

Value Proposition Refinement:

Parbinder Bhullar emphasized the importance of articulating clear value propositions and establishing concrete collaboration opportunities. The working group agreed to prepare targeted messaging emphasizing practical benefits for FinOps practitioners.

WattTime Data Integration and Future Updates

2024/2025 Data Availability:

The working group discussed WattTime's updated emissions factors for 2024 and preliminary data for 2025. Integration timelines were established pending completion of automation improvements.

Technical Integration Requirements:

• API authentication updates needed for new data access
• Schema validation for format changes
• Historical data reconciliation for trend analysis

Real-Time Cloud Dataset Publication Planning

Version Control and Review Process:

Sean Mcilroy outlined the comprehensive approach for dataset publication:

Pre-Publication Phase:

• Branch creation for member review
• Two-week comment period for stakeholder input
• Technical validation of all data sources

Review and Approval Phase:

• Consolidation of member feedback at November 18 meeting
• Resolution of conflicts and technical issues
• Final approval vote by working group members

Publication and Communication Phase:

• Formal ratification through GSF governance
• Social media announcement campaign
• Direct outreach to key stakeholder organizations

AI Tools and Automation Discussion

Adrian Cockcroft shared insights from the upcoming QCon San Francisco presentation on "Directing AI Agents for Fun and Profit," discussing potential applications for dataset automation. The rapid evolution of AI tooling was noted, with specific mention of Cursor and Claude Code as current preferred platforms.

Automation Opportunities Identified:

• PDF extraction for sustainability reports
• Translation and mapping for international data sources
• Anomaly detection in emissions data trends

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Topics to be Added to the Next Meeting

1. Version 1.1 Specification Review and Approval - Consolidation of all member feedback and final ratification vote

2. Dataset Publication Review - Evaluation of all submitted PRs and resolution of technical issues

3. AWS Automation Progress - Update on Google translation mapping and Oracle data processing

4. WattTime Data Integration Status - Progress report on 2024/2025 data incorporation

5. FinOps Foundation Engagement Planning - Finalization of December presentation materials and agenda

6. HSBC Case Study Update - Status of internal approval and publication timeline

7. GHG Protocol Consultation Response - Review of draft GSF position and member feedback integration

8. Microsoft Sustainability Data Update - Potential update from Julian Wilmouth on Azure Scope 3 timeline

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Action Items

Action Item	Owner	Due Date	Status
Complete Google Cloud translation mapping for automation	Adrian Cockcroft	November 18, 2025	Pending
Resolve Oracle Cloud data processing blockers	Adrian Cockcroft	November 18, 2025	Pending
Prepare AI automation examples for QCon presentation	Adrian Cockcroft	November 15, 2025	In Progress
Complete PR #114 review and provide feedback	Henry Richardson	November 11, 2025	Pending
Implement review comments directly on PR #114	Chris Adams	November 11, 2025	Pending
Create version 1.1 specification branch for review	Sean Mcilroy	November 8, 2025	Pending
Distribute dataset for member review period	Sean Mcilroy	November 8, 2025	Pending
Coordinate with Jamie regarding AWS engagement	Sean Mcilroy	November 11, 2025	Pending
Connect Julian Wilmouth with Jamie for Microsoft coordination	Sean Mcilroy	November 11, 2025	Pending
Draft FinOps presentation materials for December meeting	Sean Mcilroy	December 2, 2025	Pending
Follow up with Henry Richardson on WattTime data updates	Parbinder Bhullar	November 11, 2025	Pending
Provide Microsoft/Azure Scope 3 timeline update	Julian Wilmouth	November 18, 2025	Pending
Check HSBC case study internal approval status	Julian Wilmouth	November 18, 2025	Pending
Review and consolidate GHG Protocol consultation inputs	Policy Working Group	November 25, 2025	In Progress
Develop structured questionnaire for FinOps requirements	Working Group	November 25, 2025	Pending

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Meeting Adjournment

Next Meeting: November 18, 2025 at 0800 PT / 1600 BST
Meeting Adjourned: 1639 BST
No Objections to Adjournment